WC Final: All Blacks vs France

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RiDdLeR
28 Apr 2010

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 11:34
History
-------
Played     50 times
All Blacks     37 wins
France     12 wins
Drawn    1 time


Last 5
-------
All Blacks 37-17 at Auckland
All Blacks 39-12 at Marseille
All Blacks 14-10 at Wellington
France 27-22 at Dunedin
France 20-18 at Cardiff


Last 5 in NZ
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All Blacks 37-17 at Auckland
All Blacks 14-10 at Wellington
France 27-22 at Dunedin
All Blacks 61-10 at Wellington
All Blacks 42-11 at Auckland


Summary
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The most deserving side to make a grand final who dominated every game on their way to the final comes up against the most undeserving finalist in the history of the world cup.

The All Blacks have dominated this tournament from the outset. They were the only side to finish with the maximum 20 points in the pool round, then they smashed Argentina in the most dominant quarter final performance and repeated the dose on Australia in the semi finals. 

The French have been awful nearly all the tournament. They took 70 minutes to put Japan and Canada away with unflattering wins. They then got flogged by the All Blacks who they meet here before losing to Tonga. Against a disappointing English side, they produced 40 minutes of great rugby but were kept pointless throughout the second half. Then against a 14 man welsh side, they were dominated, keep tryless and hung on in the most awful performance to win a knock out game in the history of the world cup. 

On form, the All Blacks should win this by 30 points. When they met earlier in the tournament the All Blacks iced the game at half time and the 17 points the french scored were flattering considering one try came from an intercept and the other an act of poor sportsmanship taking a quick tap while the ref was talking to All Black players. The impotent French have managed a paltry 3 points in the second half of their 2 finals.

I dont expect any surprises from this french side. I expect to see them belted. No 1999, no 2007 this week. This will be 1987 with a bigger margin. All Blacks by 30 points
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Emmanuel
09 Oct 2008

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 17:28

the most undeserving finalist in the history of the world cup.

A little bit harsh comment Riddler no our fault that England were so poor during our 1/4 finals and that the Welsh missed 11 points on penalties in the 1/2
The fact remains no matter how average we have been , No one has been able to send us packing our bags yet  and we are still in with a chance , no matter how small it is , to win this tournament ...


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RiDdLeR
28 Apr 2010

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 17:45
Nothing harsh about it. Tell me one other finalist in the 24 year history of the world cup that would not deserve to be there over this current crop of french players. I would rate Ireland, Wales, Australia and South Africa as all more worthy finalists than the French in this tournament.

You may have made the final but you can thank Roland for that and his over zealous red carding as opposed to a yellow. Still having the french there has made our job so much more easier because Wales would have tested us.  

We turn up with the intensity we showed against Australia and the French turn up and play to the standard they have for 90% of this tournament we will win by a cricket score.   
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Emmanuel
09 Oct 2008

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 18:12
Riddler

If sports was won on merit only  a few of the last 7 WC would have had different results ( 95 for example )  
Why thanking the ref ? he only applied the standard rule for this type of tackles .Warburton only have himself to blame , you do not risk this type of challenge during a WC Semi Final

Last not but not least Francois Pienaar  should think twice before calling us the Worst team in the WC  ,  How did they win their semi and final in 95 ???
 

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alain
21 Sep 2011

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 18:30

we have nothing to lose in this final...
everything can happen...
don't celebrate your victory yet !
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Grist
28 May 2010

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 19:33
Emmanuel, I think the France will go for gold this weekend. They will not need any motivation. Once they spark, it is very hard to stop them. France has been the wild card in every WC and this WC is no different.
 
That Riddler always make wild predictions - the only thing you can bet on is that his outrageous predictions are totally wrong. Just read his predictions before the WC on the Wallabies - sheer nonsense. Just read his predictions before the WC on the Springboks - utterly absurd.
 
Arrogance, entitlement and complacency are be the biggest enemies of any team going into the final.
 
So far the only team that showed this attitude were the Wallabies. After all NoDeal O'Neill, CEO of the ARU, arrogantly declared at the beginning of the year that the Wallabies will play in the final of the WC. All know where the filthy Wallabies went, so suck it up air head !!! Add to that the smug opinions of Phool Kearns and Greg Phartin, then you know why the cheating Wallabies can only go down, down, Down Under !!!! 
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RiDdLeR
28 Apr 2010

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 19:39
I predicted the Springboks would go out early at this world cup and thats what they did. Ridicule the Aussies all you want Gristine, the record books will show they you lost to them. The record books will show Aussie did better than you at this world cup. Now go dust that empty cabinet of yours
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geraintjthree

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 19:51
Emmanuel, i admire your loyalty to your team, but you are simply wrong.  Yes, there are IRB rules for tip tackles, but they are not enforced in most club games, and even internationals, so why choose the world cup semi-final to enforce the rules now?  There are IRB rules for crooked feeds, but how often are these enforced? Nobody can expect perfection in any refereeing, but they can expect consistency, and Wales didn't find that with Alain Rolland.  All you are doing is taking the letter of the IRB law to justify your win, because it lacks so much credibility.  The unwritten laws in rugby are also as important as the written ones - notably not to feign injury for your own advantage (that happens every day in soccer, which is why most of us treat that game with contempt) but your player who went down made a complete meal of it. Absolutely disgraceful. Also, how would you feel if the ref was called Gareth Llewellyn-Jones, born in England, whose father comes from Cardiff? Would you feel safe that the ref was unbias? That is the exact equivalent of what Wales were up against with the appointment of Alain Rolland for that match.
You may feel as though France deserve to be there (you, and all Frenchman the world over, and the odd tool like Grist), but the rest of the world feel its a sham.  France are in the final, yes, but do they deserve to be there, no, and that is plain for the world to see. They are the worst team to ever take the field in the final and it is just wrong.  Rant over.
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Mel
08 Oct 2008

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 20:03
Geraint,

I think you told him.  I would agree with you about the tackle.  Here is the problem for the Welsh.  Even with 14 men you dominated the French.  However your undoing was the failed kicks.  Three penatlies, one conversion and two drop goals missed.  If you had hit one of those kicks you would have won.  In my opinion the Welsh were in the game up until the final whistle.  That is a huge acheivement considering the 14 man problem but you did not kick the kickable kicks.  That was your downfall.  It is are really shame because the Welsh just plumb deserved to be in the final.  They were the inform NH team by far.  The French were incredibly lucky indeed.  Unfortunately that is the way the luck falls.  The All Blacks are accutely aware of that from what has happened in the past.  I feel for you Geraint as you deserved a different result.  I personally would have preferred and Wales vs All Black final.  

Blessings

Mel
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Grist
28 May 2010

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 20:07
Geraintj, you are beating your head against the wall like a demented donkey !!! Silly to declare that a team does not deserve to be in the final. The reality is that the knock-out structure of the WC does not lend itself to the best teams getting to the finals or semi-finals or quarter finals.
If you look at form, then the All Blacks, Springboks, Wales and Ireland were the top teams at the WC.
Teams like France, Australia, Italy and Scotland played at a standard far below the top teams and mostly produced embarrassing preformances. 
The rest were me-too amateurs.
 The reality is that how far a team went into the knock-out rounds is not a measure of a teams worth. Look no further than Australia and France as examples.  
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zaq77
12 Mar 2009

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 20:40

 Nobody can expect perfection in any refereeing, but they can expect consistency, and Wales didn't find that with Alain Rolland.  All you are doing is taking the letter of the IRB law to justify your win, because it lacks so much credibility.  The unwritten laws in rugby are also as important as the written ones - notably not to feign injury for your own advantage (that happens every day in soccer, which is why most of us treat that game with contempt) but your player who went down made a complete meal of it.
.....................................
Yes can sympathise,but strange you didn't sympathise when the Boks had a Kiwi ref, officiating that game, even though it had to be the most blatant display of either biaisim or outright corruption!!  You had one bad decision going against you, and yet if Warbuton hadn't spear tackled you may have won,and you feel slighted !! The Boks had not one, two or even three decisions ( which may have been understandable) but many, which changed completely the outcome of the game ! However I do know that you and all others on this thread will scoff and laugh, and call us whingers, bad sporstsmen etc, but hell I don't give a toss, its to be expected ! I for one want there to be an investigation, this must not be swept under the carpet until we get answers from the IRB, we deserve them, and demand it !! If there is, or has been match fixing, it must be exposed,no matter who is responsible !!

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Emmanuel
09 Oct 2008

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 20:55

Geraint

I totally understand your disapointment and trust me when i say that i would have preferred to have won that game in a different way without any contreversy possible , especially against a Rugby nation i have always admired and respected
I would have gladly supported Wales in the final

I do not know why the IRB appointed Alain Roland , as far as his being unbias for that game all i can tell you is that he has never been all that kind with us in previous games throughout his carrer
Talking about bad decision  Do you honestly believe that the penalty awarded against Nicolas Mas at the 75th mns was all that clear and evident ?  I have my opinion on the subject
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geraintjthree

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 21:37

Emmanuel, the thing is, you wouldn't have won that game in any other way. We outplayed you with 14 men on the pitch, and with Warburton on the field for another 60 odd minutes, it is inconceivable you would have won.

In answer to your question, i don't think it was a penalty. Had Halfpenny slotted it, i wouldn't have thought it was a worthy penalty, but it would have been a worthy lead overall, for the sheer injustice of what happened previously to make amends the handicap we had of not having 14 players.

I'm not venting my frustration at you, as i think you are a decent, gracious and honourable person, but i'm frustrated with the IRB for putting Alain Rolland (who is basically French) as a the ref in the first place, and using the semi final as a place to enforce laws that aren't enforced the rest of the time.

as i've said elsewhere, i always support the NH, but not in this situation. It devalues the tournament having the French in the final, and the only true winner will be the All Blacks, and the second best team of the tournament will be the winner of Wales v Australia. 
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Emmanuel
09 Oct 2008

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 22:16
Geraint

I'm glad we actually are in agreement in regards to the 75th mns penalty and i do thank you for your kind compliment and please allow me to return it if we would have watched this game together  it would have been my privilege to buy you a drink at the end of the game
You have the right to feel hard done by as i did in 1991  when Mr Bishop from New Zealand allowed the english to literally kick Serge Blanco out of the park and constantly penalised us for no obvious reasons , same goes for 1995 , we were by far the better team on that day but it was quite clear that no one was allowed to beat SA in their own backyard and guess who was the Ref...Mr Bevan
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Grist
28 May 2010

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 22:31
Emmanuel, why do you keep referring to the Springboks 1995 WC victory as though something was wrong? The mighty Springboks dusted off the All Blacks in the finals and thoroughly deserved the win. They further added a second WC trophy in 2007. All this time France has not won it once.
 
Geraintj you have it all wrong. The team who wins the WC is not necessarily the best team! The team who lose the finals is not second best. In the knock-out format, the best teams are not the teams that progress furthest to the finals.

At the 2011 WC the top teams have been the All Blacks, Springboks, Wales and Ireland.
The next group played far below the top level and included France, Australia, Italy, Argentina and Scotland.
The rest were just anybody, nobody or somebody.

Take France and Australia as examples - all agree that their play have been pretty ordinary, but France is in the finals and Australia was in the semi-finals !! Anybody who claims these two teams must have been among the top teams is lying through his teeth !!
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Emmanuel
09 Oct 2008

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 22:46

Grist

I just wanted to highlight that Wales was not the only team hard done by throughout the WC history.. that's all 
As much has Geraint is convinced about being robbed of a WC final , I felt the same way on that day in June 1995 but yes history will only remember that SA has won the Cup twice 
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RiDdLeR
28 Apr 2010

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 23:50
Geraintj you have it all wrong. The team who wins the WC is not necessarily the best team! 
----------------------

You have got that right Grist. The Springboks of 2007 were definitely not the best team. 
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RiDdLeR
28 Apr 2010

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Posted Mon 17 Oct 2011 23:55
Well done to France. They won the coin toss to decide what color to wear and rather than make the All Blacks wear an alternate strip, they have allowed the All Blacks to wear the black jumper in the final and will wear an alternate strip themselves. This is a good gesture from them that will be appreciated by New Zealanders.
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Emmanuel
09 Oct 2008

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Posted Tue 18 Oct 2011 00:05
See Riddler we are not all that bad after all  ... :-)
Not sure if Laporte would have been so elegant had he still be around
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Emmanuel
09 Oct 2008

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Posted Tue 18 Oct 2011 00:08

To add that i am very happy about this decision and would have done the same...
World cup final at Eden Park in Auckland against the mighty A.B ??  of course you let them wear their black jersey !!
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Emmanuel
09 Oct 2008

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Posted Tue 18 Oct 2011 00:23

You have got that right Grist. The Springboks of 2007 were definitely not the best team. 

Were they in 95 as well ?  Was England the best team in 2003 ?
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Mike
08 Oct 2009

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Posted Tue 18 Oct 2011 01:07
Of course the All Blacks on merit deserve to win the RWC in 2011. But the French by good luck (with refereeing) have caused heartbreak in the past. A word to the wise, don't trust them and remember their dishonesty with Rainbow Warrior.
Should have won in SA as well excepting  they all bar the two or three that didn't eat a certain meal, came down with food poisoning. Oh how convenient and then to loose in extra time after extreme dehydration. Makes one think the gods of Rugby don't like too much success
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Pascal
09 Oct 2008

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Posted Tue 18 Oct 2011 02:41
Greetings y'all, and particularly to good ol' Riddler and Emmanuel.

The last time I posted here was about 4 years ago, after taking quite a bit of abuse from Riddler before the quarter final. 

I did have my revenge after this game (a day that which  -probably- lives in infamy in Riddler's book), in an admittedly not very subtle or elegant fashion, but darn, it DID feel good.

Well, it looks like we have had another infamous day this world cup, albeit against a NH team. I cringed pretty much every minute of the game at the sheer lack of inspiration and, shall I say the word: flair from "my" team. Based on Geraintj's posts, feelings are still raw, and understandably so.
Hell, I would support the blacks if I was Welsh, just like I -almost- always support whoever is playing England, particularly when they defeat us !
Still, what is done is done: France is in final, not in a convincing way, granted, but they are there.
But puh-lease, don't pull this "Alain Rolland" is pro-french garbage. Whoever has seen him ref'ing a French club in the H-Cup can not honestly say that, seriously.
Wrong decision? Possibly (heck, I'll even say probably), but don't you succumb to the conspiracy theory 'cause that's just a load of manure.

So I have not posted for the last 4 years here but came back to read on occasions what was written here.

And up until this thread, Riddler had disappointingly mellowed,much to my surprise.

So thank God for this post, dripping once more with sheer arrogance and unhealthy excess of self-confidence : we feed on that ! (I am disappointed that he then wrote something nice about the jersey thing !).
  
I won't need any outside help to be crazy happy if France was to pull this out, but imagining Riddler's face after the game would certainly be the proverbial icing on the cake.

Truth to be told, I unfortunately give our side 1% chance (if that!), but if one team can do it against these odds, it certainly is France IMO.

Hoping for a flamboyant final,

Pascal
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geraintjthree

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Posted Tue 18 Oct 2011 03:52

Pascal, I made this comment previously:

"... how would you feel if the ref was called Gareth Llewellyn-Jones, born in England, whose father comes from Cardiff? Would you feel safe that the ref was unbias? That is the exact equivalent of what Wales were up against with the appointment of Alain Rolland for that match."

Let's just pretend the imaginary referee 'Gareth Llewellyn-Jones' was the referee instead of Alain Rolland. To get the analogy perfect, let's also assume that Gareth's Welsh father has taught him to be a fluent Welsh speaker (Allain Rolland is also a French speaker). So we have a half-Welsh Welsh speaking ref refereeing the Wales v France match. A week ago Gareth had seen the country of his birth (England) knocked out by France, so he wouldn't have been too happy about that. 

Firstly, are you honestly telling me that Gareth would be a good person to have as the ref for the Wales v France semi-final match? are there no other refs available who could have done it instead?

Secondly, why did he decide in this match (of all matches) to start complying with IRB laws to the letter of the law, when for the past few years there has been alot of inconsistency shown?   Why was he so quick to make a decision and not consult with anyone else? could it be that for a split second 50:50 call, his subconscious took over?

Now, i've had taken it on the chin if it was Steve Walsh or Wayne Barnes that made the decision, but why are the IRB opening themselves up for abuse.  

So, using your parlance - "puh-lease" don't expect me to agree with you about this. It was wrong for him to be there. Full stop. If you want to know, all the Welsh rugby boards were indignant that he was chosen before the match (and not after the event) as everyone was predicting him to make a bad mistake like this, which is what actually happened.

  
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geraintjthree

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Posted Tue 18 Oct 2011 03:59

Pascal,

Where you are correct, is that there is a pleasant level of decorum on these boards now compared to 4 years ago!  In the good old days, i remember lots of fighting with Riddler and Zedds, but that has strangely died away. Maybe we're all getting older and wiser. It's less fun, but more calming, and life's stressful enough as it is, so it's probably for the best. Occassionally you get the odd spikey character like Grist who comes on to try and flex his muscles a bit, but it's nothing really, like an annoying fly that needs swatting away.
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Emmanuel
09 Oct 2008

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Posted Tue 18 Oct 2011 04:12

Salut Pascal

Where have you been my dear compatriot ? I have been on my own ( well almsot...) here during the all WC  defeniding our colours and only now you choose to show up ? :-)   well better late than never ...
Any way i can only agree with your above comments in regards to Mr Roland , he has indeed never been that kind to les bleus or any French clubs 
Unfortunately for our welsh friends there are not the first and won''t be the last team to feel hard done by during a WC and i do wish them all the best for Friday

As far as our chances for next Sunday I will be more generous ( i am an optimist by nature ) than you by giving us 10 % chance to win Rugby's holy graal ....

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